EP072 - How to lead creative innovation remotely with Amanda Whitmore at Hive Power
About the episode
This episode’s guest, Amanda Whitmore, is a senior manager of a fully distributed team in the clean energy space. She shares her insights, learning, and takeaways on how she manages, leads, and builds a remote creative team in a high-performing and highly innovative industry.
About the guest
Amanda Whitmore is a corporate storyteller and marketing guru with a passion for entrepreneurship. She has a background in psychology, human rights, and launching startups. With experience in tech VC marketing and sustainable venturing, she now serves as a Senior Marketing Manager at Hive Power, a renewable energy AI startup.
She specializes in design thinking and user-centric marketing strategies, including community engagement, brand management, lead generation, content, SEO, paid ads, and events. In her free time, she mentors at Techstars Smart Cities and supports nonprofit and social entrepreneurship projects.
Connect with Amanda on LinkedIn.
About the host
My name is Peter Benei, founder of Anywhere Consulting. My mission is to help and inspire a community of remote leaders who can bring more autonomy, transparency, and leverage to their businesses, ultimately empowering their colleagues to be happier, more independent, and more self-conscious.
Connect with me on LinkedIn.
Want to become a guest on the show? Contact me here.
-
Welcome everyone to the leadership anywhere podcast. Today's episode is a bit special as every episode is special when we have the chance to interview distributed leaders on how they are managing their remote teams, sharing their insights, learnings, and takeaways. Our guest today is Amanda Whitmore from hive power. Senior manager of a fully distributed team in the clean energy space. Thank you Amanda for joining. Thank you for being here. Thank you for your time.
Yeah, thanks for having me. I'm glad to be here.
Lovely. So tell me a little bit more about how did you start working remotely? How did you end up in a distributed team? I think that would be a great journey to share.
Alrighty. So I started out wanting to be a digital nomad, let's say, and wanting to have this abroad lifestyle since I am living in Italy, as we were talking about before the recording, and I wanted to have my own startup, which I came to Bologna in 2016 to study my master's in entrepreneurship and international business. And from there I started a cosmetics beauty box startup with a social impact based on my past career, which was in psychology and human rights. And I was working in NGOs in the U S and also a little bit of startup activity in China. And yeah, so it came naturally as I was working in my startup. And then when that didn't go forward, which, that's a whole nother story we can get into later, but I ended up working for a consulting company and innovation advisory, which also invested in startups in Bologna. And there were more traditional there I started my first three months in 2019 and late 2019 working in the office. And of course the pandemic hit and we all ended up going remotely even if we could have been Hybrid kind of in the beginning sometimes. And when we went full remote, it was a huge struggle for a lot of us. Even before, when I worked in the U S it was always in presence, always 8 AM and driving in snow and whatever conditions to get there. And often pretty long and hard commutes in Michigan where I'm from. I didn't like it at first that much compared to being in the office, and I felt Oh, how are you going to get things done? My startup was smart and able to do that. But I thought with a big team and a big company, I don't know, we need to communicate with other departments that aren't always readily accessible unless you're passing each other. And it was a big thing to navigate. And then I started loving it though. I realized all of the benefits for my physical health, for my balance, for being able to stay on top of things at home and at work, and I found that I was working more hours. And more dedicated than ever to my job than I would have been in the office and there were less, casual, unintentional interruptions, some of which I think can be productive. But some of which can just throw you off track and get you outside of the strategy where you're originally headed. Yeah. Now I'm working for a Swiss company, which is fully remote for me, at least, except for when I travel for events, I'm their marketing manager. And we're a startup scale up of 15 people. And yeah, I've found that this way, we're able to have all of those benefits are just described plus hire some of the best talent in the world. Without having to sacrifice their preferred lifestyles. So we have people in the UK and Spain, in Italy and Switzerland, but not only in Lugano where we're headquartered, but also other parts of Switzerland and the set allowing us to work with some of the brightest minds that we can for what we're aiming to do, which is work on the energy transition through algorithms that help reduce consumption during peak periods and favor renewable energy sources. So you need a lot of smart minds, both on the content side and on the developer side for that. And to enjoy, yeah, a good lifestyle and to be healthier altogether. So I think that kind of gives you the why.
That's a really good journey. And before addressing the elephant in the room in terms of the hiring, because now that you are now working for a company that has a really special need for talent. And just to give you an example quickly I've worked for an IP consulting company for many years remotely. And it's it is insanely easy to find a great salesperson, right? It's a little bit harder to find a great salesperson with tech background, with SaaS tech background. Most of the clients of that company were tech startups, by the way. And it's almost impossible to find someone who's a great salesperson, who has tech background, and also understands what IP and legal and all the matrices are so those three combinations, when you combine three different things together, That means that the people who want to hire or find are really rare. And you are working in a company that's partially AI so like algorithms where you need the basic development skills as well, because of AI plus energy and clean sector. So it's three different things, everyone has to understand on the company and finding those people. I don't know, within the Lugano area it's challenging, but before we return into that, I think that's a personal thing that I noticed and it should be addressed that you're from Michigan long travel also sometimes snowy correct me if I'm wrong. Yeah very cold. Yeah. And in Bologna, I in Italy, you don't have that kind of like a huge travel huge commute to the office. And you personally still felt that remote wasn't the way at first for you, right? Because you, you said that you switching from the in office was like a little bit like challenging or like a harder how did you get things done? How did you meet with others and stuff? Can you tell me a little bit more about that?
Yeah, I did, I worked, I lived in the city center of Bolognia and our office was a bit outside and I just found that it was easy to work in the office because I worked in that consulting kind of setting. There were a lot of verticals like FinTech, like energy tech, hR tech, all different types of people and people managing these specific innovation roadmaps and strategies for companies that were, hiring the consulting services and also looking for startups who were in their network. Being able to bump shoulders with the people who are working on that. It's just it seemed more natural to do so in the office because they're all quite busy. As you can imagine being a high growth company and an investor doing so many things actually one of the fastest growing in Italy. Yeah, later we found ways to, I guess I improved my communication online with them and ways to be more intentional and more snappy with the way that we would meet and knowing what information to get because I was working on content on webinars on big corporate events, which. Could bring more people into talk about those kinds of innovations. So I would need a lot of specific content from the subject matter experts in the company and yeah, now. It makes total sense to me to do all of that remotely. And whereas, yeah, previously it just seemed Oh yeah. In person is so important for that. Being that I have that psychology background, I think about the pheromones, the little puffs of air that you perceive when you're in person and across the desk from somebody. But at the same time, I think if you develop your empathy, you develop good listening and even. Watching observational skills. You can also perceive someone's emotional state and react better and communicate when you're on camera and having meetings when it's needed. And then when things are very important for building initial trust. Yes, maybe you need to try to arrange an in person meeting, especially if it's strategic. But a lot of the execution, I think you don't need that for and that's been a shift over the last six, seven years now for me and my thinking and I hope it is for a lot of people because it makes I think life easier and more fulfilling for those who are able to enjoy it. It's a great equalizer, whether someone is, as I saw with coworkers there and also in my current role who have families who need maybe to take care of elderly parents or just for their own mental health, find that they can live a more balanced lifestyle in another place they've become happier employers, employees, and more productive that way. I think it's a win.
Yeah, totally. And how you do it on the on, on your current role, because I think, yes, collaboration is super important and you need to be more intentional in terms of how you communicate and collaborate with your team when you are doing like remote operations. But I guess everything that you forced learned during the pandemic, right? Everything that you learned, you apply it now as an experience on the role where you're actually not forced learning it and not forced doing it, but, intentionally choosing to work remotely with your team, which is totally different. So what are the great learnings or practices that you do right now?
Sure. I think it's important to have rituals and to have things that can keep people feeling engaged and tied together intentionally when it's appropriate, and then have space for them to do their best, deepest work with that. Out interruptions or pinks, and we usually do that with stand up meetings, so I would say we're more remote than async. I was reading through your book, and I appreciate that differentiation. Being that we work on content and we need to still align on how to execute the brand guidelines and, keep Harmonious voice and change our messaging being a startup. When we discover a new target or niche that we should really be directing the content for usually I'm the one who can understand those new clients that we're trying to target and help work with the team. I have one person who's very Creative and graphically minded and more of a writer and then another person who's technical and academic and by combining their two strengths were able to do that. But I have to also help direct yeah, how we're going to do that messaging. Then once we're able to synchronize on that. In real time. They have plenty of time by themselves to brainstorm and to take those ideas and make them their own. And I think that, one of the best leadership pieces of advice I've heard is to be a good manager, you just need to know how to get out of employees way and let them do what they do best. And being remotely also does help with that. So yeah, some of those rituals I can talk about as well.
So please. And why they're important, I think it's important. So sorry to jump in, but you mentioned for example, on the on, on my book, usually I recommend that, that do as much as you can, because it helps you to do the deep work for your job and yeah, I guess by now everyone knows how I'm against any kind of daily standups in general but if it's part of your ritual, if it's culturally driven in any way. It can be super useful, as you said, but the main question is that, like why these rituals do you think are super important? Sure. You're also a psychologist, which is also amazing. It's really rare to talk to someone who that space as well.
Yeah, I learned this like way back in the day when I worked for a nonprofit staffing firm that helped people with barriers to employment to access jobs within like government offices, factories, you name it, like we had contracts all over. And I would go to the work site and help engage them and help them solve common like soft skill issues that they had, which like frequently would contribute to turnover at those workplaces. And we found we could help them reduce their turnover up to 30 percent with these employee engagement programs that we implemented. And we had moments, I think, not only where they were learning. Things like conflict management and better communication skills, but they're also talking to each other and forming a sense of community together. And I think the same thing applies when we do our stand ups. It's 15 minutes, no more than that. It's not just about planning your day, but it's about acknowledging that other people there are humans. They're not alienated from their work, but they're within a community and a movement that's bigger than themselves so that when they're alone all day, a lot of them working at their desks, they feel like they're part of something bigger. And so that feeling I recognize you. I see you today. How are you? Really, how are you doing? Is there anything I can help you with? And yeah, like this is my plan for the day. And they hear mine as transparently as I hear theirs. And we do see them, yes, on Asana and on our tools and planning and everything. But I think having a little bit of face time where there's shared empathy and an understanding of each other's lives is important when we're working remotely. And so they don't feel just like they're piecemeal workers who are moving parts of content forward, but they're people who are appreciated in their humanity and feel like they have a friendly rapport with other workers.
So totally agree. And it's I'm in a relationship wife and we live together. And we also have a really old dog. He's only always sleeping. So not really much interaction with him anyway. But again, we are together in the same space, meaning that we can talk to each other and so on. So just by stepping out from this concept and understand that other people who are working with you, sometimes they don't have any relation, they don't have a relationship during the work. They don't have someone who is always next to them, always behind them, or, someone who can, they actually always talk to live personally. And sometimes that the only conversation they can have live synchronous conversation. It's with the work peers and when you don't have the office and only remote, that's when usually you can understand that these kinds of conversations, even if it's just a five minutes, how are you? What did you do for today? Not work related can be super important to these people. So yeah, I agree. Everyone should step out from their own little piece of life. And understand that sometimes others are living a totally different life, which is totally different from you. And yeah, just that. Yeah.
We do other things too with other departments. That's just within my team, but I know that our dev team has a similar ritual. And then we, once a month, we usually have a little bit of a spatial chat. I don't know if you've ever seen spatial chat, but it's Set up like a living room, basically, or you can change your type of room, but you can move your cursor around. And as you move in parts of the virtual room, you can hear only the people who are very close to you. And we use that as well as online games that we can play together. There's a scribble. io where we play Pictionary online together. So we just, we have a moment where, people can open a beer, they can say, hi, And they feel like, okay we're all a team together, even though we're not all physically together. And yeah, sometimes we do offsites as well. You said you're in Tuscany. We went there last year, actually, and we rented an old rustic home on a farm and had agro tourismo. Exactly, yeah, hiking in Tuscany, cooking together. We have people from all over the world, like Nigeria, India, US, Italy, Switzerland. So like one night, we had fondue from Switzerland. Another night, we're having Italian food. Another night Indian food, you just have really the whole gamut. And, we really got to know our coworkers like that. And I think that the understanding that we built up from those like deep and intentional moments was so fundamental to now when, We faced hard stuff together as a company and we have to get through that. We already have this kind of baseline trust and okay, I know them because, I saw them get drunk while they're eating a bunch of Tuscan States. Crying from chili from Indian food. Yeah, exactly. You have this feeling of camaraderie that I think helps you a lot in the more tense moments later on. And I think from all of the staff that they appreciated that so much. And at the same time, they appreciate so, so much their freedom that they have. That it's not one of those companies like I've seen a lot of us companies that say you have to be based in the U S if you want to work remotely for us. It's like, why? And, or the insurance has a problem if you're not in the U S or blah, blah, blah. And we work with remote. com for our contracts and employer of record. So we're able to travel and work. So I'm going to spend two weeks in Spain in June and part of it for a conference, but the other part, like having an apartment by the beach and just working there, it's beautiful to have that kind of freedom. And I think they all appreciate that. So much because we're all from different countries where a lot of expats and we can go back home and have time with family, but also keep our jobs and have that balance. Yeah, that's a beautiful thing.
Seen almost, I'm going to say that I've seen everything in terms of like remote company setups. But. Because I've seen so much. I'm like more, I don't know, I understand everything more empathy for example when they say that it's U. S. only, sometimes it's it's because of the time zone. So it's no hard feelings because it's not a cultural thing. It's a time zone. I think it's really hard, especially, oh Jesus, if they are on the West Coast, that's even, that's like the worst.
You're right. I understand that.
So it's it's so hard to work with them, not because whoever they are, but because where they are, because of the of the time zone.
I think like my case of Michigan, it's a little bit different because I could get up, being in Michigan, get up at 5 a. m. and take a call that was happening in Italy when it was absolutely needed. I wasn't, maybe my best brain self, but it's possible. But yeah, no, I do understand that. It's easier.
Once he's six hours, seven, six hours. Yeah. So it's it's manageable LA 10 or even more. I don't know now. So it's hard. So that's why I'd usually choose it in terms of also, and then yeah, insurance is also a big thing. But yeah, some of these challenges can be addressed by other solutions, like for example, remote. com or deal or whatever. But And as you say, the async stuff. And the async sometimes forces you. The time zones are forcing you to do async things. But what if you are a sales agency which relies 100 percent mainly on synchronized meetings and client calls and reaching out and whatever, right? It's really hard to work with as the arts who are scattered across the globe. So yeah, I see everything. Yeah. Yeah. How did you did you see any kind of like results or metrics that you can that you can claim because of these great initiatives like for example, you mentioned team retreats, which are super important. You mentioned rituals get togethers or anything that can help virtual bonding, which you can strengthen with your outbonding, right? Do you see anything that, that can be showcased as a result, not just like churn, that's not usual part, but like anything else, like improved productivity or something, or you just understand people more, I don't know.
I think, yeah, from a recruiting perspective, it's definitely an advantage in addition to being a startup, doing something for environment. That already puts us in a higher position when, Gen Z or like younger talents are looking at what we're doing. They're way more driven than other generations when it comes. Everybody, yes, they want to contribute to sustainability, but I don't think we've ever seen a generation that is more willing to put the environment in front of a paycheck than the current new graduates. So I think for sure it's helping with that. And then the modern mentality that comes with that knowing that it's going to be using all of the best tools and we're going to be, really smart with their workflows. And so they can focus on the things that matter and that we have that shared value of, minimizing busy work and tasks and knowing that, maybe investing in a better tool here or there is a good one, and we're not going to have some million layers of corporate bureaucracy to make a decision about that tool but just go for it. Because if we can work smarter. Then we can all do a little bit more and we can reach our goals faster. Something I'd like to talk about is our community that we created, not within the company. But we have this clean energy club, which is a concept that I developed with my team in order to first it was just to avoid having people sign up all the time for webinars and to have them, okay, they're already enrolled, we don't have to worry about how many signups we got. Because they're enrolled in the club. Okay, so it was an accidental community but then it became more and more. They're always the best, by the way, I'm just saying. Yeah that actually has taken off into a community with more than 400 energy and mobility executives around Europe and North America. And it's been going wonderfully. And I think that part of it is because there's some parts of recruiting for a community that can be soul sucking. So when you are doing all of your lead generation and you are putting, cause you need to personalize obviously, and make sure. That you're inviting the right people, especially in ours, where we have an exclusive community, people have to apply to get in. It's free, but they have to meet our criteria. And I have, stuff like going for hours on end, sometimes filtering through the leads and qualifying them and sending them personalized messages. I think you have to be a happy employee to do that well and not to get distracted in the LinkedIn vacuum and sucked into just reading content after content there. Don't trigger me, please. You know what I'm saying? Because it's, Some, it takes a lot of work to find the right people and to make the messages and you have to keep yourself encouraged because one out of 10 that you find are going to actually convert maybe. And so you have to do bulk in order to get results. And I think that they're getting those results because they're happy and they're able to focus better because they're happy. And because they have the setup where, yeah, they're in their remote, quiet space and able to do their best deep work. Yeah, and you know that we've had this community itself is also mostly remote. We do monthly online events and we do breakout rooms for networking. And people are able to meet each other, they're able to go way deeper on these tech topics and energy than they would just meeting in their own countries with the people that they can find maybe in their own cities. We've got people from Germany, from Italy, from France, all together in the same room from major OEMs and energy companies and the like. So that's been really effective. And then once in a while, we've been testing some high level events in Milan, which are great for, getting people physically together and that some of that chemistry you only get in person. But I think both the online and the in person events have been a huge success because of this more digital approach that we've initially taken with it. Yeah, that's where I would see the impact to answer your question.
So do you recruit from the community as well? Because it sounds super interesting. So I had guests they help companies to organize professional communities for themselves. And one of the like key takeaway that we had from that episode is that these professional communities especially if they are external or open to external people as well, so not just for the company team members, they are amazing for recruitment Because if they join the community, even if they don't work for the company yet, but they are interested in the mission and the vision and whatever they do. It's just so much easier to loop people within the community first and do the usual recruitment cycle after that.
It's funny that you say that because I talked personally with our CEO and have said, if we were to have a position like that, and he's even said that this person and this person who came to the meetings would be really good for us. So yeah, we definitely do see that opportunity. We haven't acted on it yet, but I think that there's definitely like for expanding the company and knowing exactly who is the right person to help us with meeting our next growth goals. It's for sure a great resource. And I've even seen some people who are members in our community start to put this on their LinkedIn profiles as like member clean energy plus a badge. Yeah. And we're like, ah, okay. Nice. Yeah. No, definitely. It's good for engaging.
But it's a, but it's a niche group, right? So it's a niche I wouldn't, I'm not within that circle of interest, but I would imagine only a couple of thousand people who are actually not interested, but actually understand what you're doing within the community. Signing up like a couple of hundreds, this is amazing.
So also for investors, I think that's very good. It's your communication tool because you have climate tech investors who may be I have a more broad view of energy and mobility tech like what we produce, but to really get down into the topics they're hearing the social proof, not only from us, but also people from all around Europe and North America who are jumping on there and saying how necessary the technology that we're developing is for the energy transition to move forward and what kind of economic prospects that might imply when they're hearing it from major OEMs and energy companies. It's, yeah and multiple fronts is definitely, I think, good social proof, whether it's for convincing new prospects or engaging people, at least in the early stages of a relationship as an investor or prospect. So that they feel comfortable with us and they know who we are, they know yeah, what we're doing and the value that it brings and able to feel like it's two way too. They're getting something back immediately by being part of this community.
So yeah something totally. Out of the Q and A conversation, but I have a pet peeve, which I want to share. Sorry. Because you're a marketer and a creative professional as well. So that's also important to address with at least one question. So personally, I worked for agencies for 10 years in office. And there was like a lingering concept which everyone like like silently agreed that having brainstorming and coming up with the creative ideas You have to be in person because there is this magic thing called chemistry That we bounce each on each other different ideas I throw you at one and you come back with me with other stuff and then somehow it evolves into something like totally unique Now, I also understood that, that concept and obviously since I've worked in agencies practice that concept, but after now I'm working remotely for another 10 years now. I personally don't really see that as a huge value because collaboration is not really about chemistry at least for me. But I would love to see your view. How do you develop creative ideas with a team that yeah. Okay. You are meeting with your team sometimes at least once a year or twice a year, but still you are working remotely with them. Sure. Can you be creative in a remote setting?
Oh, yeah. We know from social science and everything there are a lot of people who tend to dominate in those brainstorming sessions in person. And the quiet ones usually cede to that one who's dominating the conversation. So you really are getting only the ideas of one or two loudmouth people and not from maybe the people who are introverted, but they're reflecting on everything that's being said, and they have all of these ideas percolating below the surface, but they're not willing to Take that social risk of saying those out loud. I think when you work remotely, you're able to have Maybe a shorter meeting that doesn't turn into this long kind of more like ego boosting thing for the loud people. You have a short meeting where you can discuss some of the goals that you have, some of the targets that you have that you want to reach with your content and your webinars, your events, whatever. And then they can brainstorm on their own. And so can the loud people. Everybody like takes a second to write things down. When you write things down, you're engaging your prefrontal cortex. You're engaging your thinking, logical, wise mind, and you're able to develop your ideas a little bit better. I've had so many cool content pieces come out of having that kind of set up and then coming back together to review, people putting things into a Google Doc or slides or whatever, and then sharing their ideas and then Combining the best of all of them to make our content plan compared to, yeah, people just shouting out or, doing these live brainstorms that were maybe are only one or two way. And even though you're in a room full of five or six people, so yeah.
You said, by the way, earlier, not for this answer or not for that question, but that is a great equalizer. And yes I think it equalizes not just how we work, but also the intro how introverts and extroverts contribute to to the same process or the flow. Because remote actually a little bit increases the introverts input because it's written sometimes and yeah, loudmouths don't really get that same amount of room or recognition there. Yeah, totally. Yeah. Yeah. Cool. Thanks. Anything that you want to share or and how people can find you maybe to join to the community or something else.
Sure. So yeah, I can share a little bit just about what Hive Power does, if you want. Please do. And then yeah, definitely happy to share about our community for those who want to join it. And maybe they have parallel startups that, can collaborate. We're always open to new collaborations as well. So have power is a software which basically can optimize anything that's connected to the grid from EV charging to energy communities, and we basically can stack different kinds of use cases within EV charging in order to maximize people's savings, whether it's on what they spend on charging or even on CO2 by basically shifting the charging times to when the market prices for energy are the lowest, or when renewable energy is most available, and even taking into account Yeah. And it also takes, yeah, it takes into account also opportunities for vehicle to grid vehicle to home, other things like that, which are very next Verizon innovations for charging legally it's not allowed in all of the countries yet, but the tech is super ready. So our pilot projects have shown also even additional savings based on being able to sell energy back from the car which acts like a big battery. On wheels back to the grid in times of need when energy prices are higher. So yeah, that's basically our startup. And then we are getting companies working on the mobility side, because you have automotive companies that are looking to sell smart technology for charging the cars as well as the charging columns or wall boxes along with the cars themselves, and also heavy vehicles like trucks and buses. As well as energy companies that are operating in this space. So we're bringing in both of those minds together. You need a lot of partnerships to make that ecosystem work and make smart charging go forward. And when you do that, especially from an institute, especially from the institutional partners, yeah, the government part is always a huge thing. We're in SMARDEN, which is a big association for basically lobbying and presenting new legislation ideas to the EU in order to improve the laws so that we can enable all of these innovations in all of the countries here. And yeah, it's basically opening up the standards. But yeah, in our community specifically, we talk about those innovations as well as others that are on their horizon and yeah, let people network with each other and they can apply on our website. If you want to drop it into the comments or the description here on the podcast, it would be amazing and we welcome everybody to apply.
Yeah. It will be cool. Thank you for sharing. By the way, one other thing that you mentioned, which is super important and not many people share it on the show, although we are like 80 episodes now Is the generational difference. So what you said is so great that that those people like from Gen Z they are super interested in this kind of mission and vision that your company shares, clean energy and saving the planet. But they are also interested in flexibility. So it's super important to understand that if you want to operate a a little bit better company that can recruit or build based on the next generations as well. It should provide some sort of flexibility to them because they always speak with their heart in mind, and less likely they pick with their wallet. Exactly. Which is great, I think. I hope it will stay that way. And I just I totally agree with you.
Yeah. I hope every generation will be successfully like more into being coherent with their values and what they're working on and not only in their free time, but all of the eight or however many hours a day that they're on the job, and I think that's the beautiful thing about them is the cynic might say Oh, yes, they don't want to work or and I'm motivated. But I think when they're working on issues like this, you suddenly see a change. And that motivation to be some of the strongest, hardest workers you've ever seen, because they're working with passion and yeah, maybe they can't get passionate about, I don't know, e commerce tools as easily, but on things like this they're able to, and then if you make them even happier by trading them well with a lifestyle that can allow them to live their dream outside of work, not just within it. You're getting a winning combination.
So that's the perfect and and sentences that we can thank you for sharing. And yeah, even for passion even if it's temporary, it is still passion. It's still more than zero. Cool. Yes. Thank you for your time. Thank you for coming here and sharing all of this.
Thank you so much for having me and for featuring Hive Power.
