EP011 - Managing remote teams with web3 principles with Tyler Sellhorn of Polygon
About the episode
This episode focuses on how web3 influences the operations and the management of distributed remote teams. How can transparency be a default for companies? How will distributed workforce shape our future as people? How the way we work is leading to our internal culture? To discuss this, I invited Tyler Sellhorn, Head of Remote at Commsor.
About the guest
Once, Tyler was a technology-oriented teacher; now, he's a teaching-oriented technologist. Tyler is a Head of Remote at Commsor. Tyler is an advocate for remote-first workplaces broadly, including serving as the host of “The Remote Show” podcast from We Work Remotely. At his core, Tyler is an enthusiastic, empathetic educator with a passion for leveraging technology to help others become their best selves. Connect with Tyler on LinkedIn or visit his website.
About the host
My name is Peter Benei, founder of Anywhere Consulting. My mission is to help and inspire a community of remote leaders who can bring more autonomy, transparency, and leverage to their businesses, ultimately empowering their colleagues to be happier, more independent, and more self-conscious.
Connect with me on LinkedIn.
Want to become a guest on the show? Contact me here.
Quotes from the show
The software component of our workspace becomes the culture of that workplace. When we have things set up a certain way, that's how it feels. And we do things a certain way. That's an experience. How we operate becomes the culture.
Do you default to transparency? The chat channels, are they public? In your company, do you talk about important things out loud and in front of other people? What is the all-hands like at your company? The more we can default to transparency, the easier it is for us to share the same experience.
The more we become distributed as workers, the more we become as people. I want to see a future where the principles we figured out in 2019 in distributed work will embed inside every company's operation.
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Welcome everyone. Yet another day to talk about the future of work and the future of leadership. I had conversations before with people who held the title head of remote, and I also had great chat about how web3 changes the future of work. But I never had the opportunity to talk to someone who's an expert in both areas. I have Tyler Sellhorn with me, who is the business operations manager at Polygon Labs and was the head of remote for the same network. Tyler, it's so great to have you here.
It's a pleasure to be here with you. Thank you so much for the opportunity to be learning out loud together. I think it is so interesting to be, you know, working in this intersection between, you know, our decentralized future while we're also working in these distributed ways. I think there's really cool, fun parallel and sometimes even intersecting aspects of, of the web3 and the remote work advocacy and leadership kind of like avenues. I'm really excited to be talking with you and, and thinking about these ideas together.
Ooh, love it. I'm trying to catch up the energy that you already have, the vibe. Fast firing, so again, as I mentioned, I talked to, to a lot of head of remote people before. And I also talked with others who were experts in blockchain. I personally served as a marketing director for many other web3 companies before, so I know that industry as well. And it's so interesting to have you here because you are the embodiment of that two most prominent factors that I, that are, I do think will shape and already shaping the future of work. So let's talk first about head of remote because you served as the head of remote and during the prep talk we actually discussed that you started the head of remote resource library way before you actually became head of remote. So you actually started, and sorry to say, and this is not like bluffing or something, but like the head of remote title and I just checked it like a few days ago on LinkedIn, which shall we say is the popular network to find jobs and titles, whatever. So what LinkedIn thinks that exist, it does exist. It doesn't exist on LinkedIn, so you cannot actually search for a title of head of remote. There is no existing job title like that at the moment. And you still I guess years ago, started this whole resource library around the title that that didn't exist. So how did that go?
So. Two things. Number one, I wanna invite anyone who's listening to embrace the idea that there is no one holding you back from doing the next thing except for yourself. And so, you know, coming to the second part is that I did that for myself, right? Two jobs ago I was going through kind of like a, like a job career kind of transition experience. And I was thinking, you know what, there's this person his name is Darren Murph. I'm sure his name has come up before on the Leadership Anywhere conversations. He was carrying this title called Head of Remote, and it seemed to be kinda this intersection of a lot of different things that I was also about. I've since had the opportunity to become closer with Darren as a person, like more than just like, like he's this you know, LinkedIn avatar as, as we say, like it is a chosen place to be present and be seen as a professional. But what I did in addition to. Kind of talking about those ideas on LinkedIn or on Twitter or wherever it happens to be that you are, I wanted to declare it, right? So I bought a domain head of remote xyz. If you want to check out some of the names and resources that are available to you there and people to follow highly recommend doing that, number one. But then number two, also finding what is next for you and start demonstrating with some sort of, online portfolio that you are about, that thing that you are trying to do next. And for me, long-term career goal was I wanted to become a head of remote. Who knows if that was that career North Star was gonna remain in my sky. But for the moment I wanted to do that. And eventually, as you know, like I say two jobs later, I was hired as a head of remote. Because, you know, there are companies out there that are looking for, you know, people that can help them figure out how to operate well in this remote first environment. You know, very, very few you know, knowledge workers today consistently every day commuting to an office. Well, what does that mean? Yeah. That that's, that's, that's what's next for our world, not just for Tyler and his career.
And, what were the expectations? So when you decided to do this, which is by the way, amazing what were the expectations that you had at that time? Because at again, at that time you weren't head of remote and then you got hired as as a head of remote. What were the expectations that what you will do as head of remote and after that, that you actually are started doing that? How did those expectations met?
I wanted to put my name next to the names of the people I wanted to become like.
Fair enough.
So what did, what did I do? I said, I'm going to create this website that has heads of remote on it. And this website is maintained by Tyler Sellhorn such and such, at such and such. And that could update as I updated what I was doing, but I wanted it to be a, you know, as I mentioned, a career North Star that was gonna be orienting me to the direction I might head. Whether or not I was gonna become that or not, who knows? But that was what was going to be the steps that I was taking along the way. And whether or not that actually happened, I felt that that was a good place to start traveling towards whether or not that actually became the thing I did. You know, one of the things that I think is interesting, you know, in the market is that now that the behaviors of ahead of remote are becoming more and more obvious. I mean, we mentioned it right off the top. You know, my title now at Polygon is business operations manager. I report to the vice president of business operations at Polygon Labs. And like the things that were valuable about me when I got hired as head of remote are valuable inside of business operations team, right? Mm-hmm it's cross-functional, it's honoring you know, kind of all kinds of different. People and you know, functions and being able to work across the organization to drive, you know, the strategic initiative of becoming a efficient and effective remote first organization. That's something that every business operations team the world over needs to be doing right now. Whether or not they recognize it as a remote.
Agree and do you think it's so many other head of remotes that I talked with, or if you follow them anyway online, they usually put the head of remotes role somewhere in between hr, right or like something HR related or like people related and ops related. And I do understand why, because obviously that cares about the people, how they work, not how they feel themselves, but also the operations, the processes, doc documentation. And because it's a, usually it's head of remote, so remote first companies, so somewhere along the line it is mandatory to come up with not just the where we work, but also the, when we work, like synchronous or asynchronous and the how we work in terms of documentation, operations, and, you know, yada, yada yada. So where do you think, where do you, where would you draw the line if you need to do between HR and operations, because now you are in business operations?
No offense, Peter, but I'm not going to draw a line. I am a both and person. Right. And if I was to say that there's like a 51 49 side of it, I would say that that the head of remote role is probably more of an operations role. Mm-hmm. but it mm-hmm. the thing of it is that when we are primarily working in digital workspaces, and that's what we're doing when we're working inside of decentralized or distributed organizations, right? That are digital first, remote first, right? That very little of what work happens is co-located between persons. The software component of our workspace becomes the culture of that workplace. And that's why there is so much of this crossover and this interaction and this shoulder to shoulder or even like locking arms of the operations in people teams inside of the very best remote first organizations that exist. Why are they so closely connected? Why, why is there this blurring of the line as it were? It's because how we operate becomes the culture of, of what a workplace becomes. When we have things set up a certain way, that's how it feels, of course. And we do things a certain way. That's the experience of that employee at that.
Of course, of course. How you work is pretty much the culture of the company. So as operations person, obviously you have a huge influence on how people work. I love everything you said. Let's talk a little bit about blockchain and web3 mm-hmm. because that's like something that we cannot ignore here. Not just because you are here, but also from, from the current trends. And you mentioned one of the keywords here decentralized workforce. Mm-hmm. and decentralized work. Now everyone who's listening probably understands what a DAO is. Do you think that a decentralized, autonomous organization is somewhat the future? Can anyhow influence how other companies work in the future? Decentralized autonomously as an organization towards a common goal?
Here's my take. Mm-hmm. I think that for a certain type of worker, freelancing as an individual. Mm-hmm. is the best case scenario for that person. For others, it is going to be an employee as a part of an agency. For others, it's going to be a contributor to a DA a O or DAO. Mm-hmm. . Right. Others still will be best suited to serving as an employee in a corporation or a small business. Sure. Or an L L C. And one of the things that has happened because of the internetization of work, right? You know, we've never met in person. We are speaking at a very advanced level on these topics. Why is that? Well, because we found each other in the long tail of the internet, we have lots and lots in common. We have web3 in common. We have distributed work in common. Well, now we can kind of just know enough context that we can just start talking to one another without a lot of introduction, that is going to become more and more the case for every employment opportunity for everyone. Right.
Love it.
This is a thing that I say very often to people who, you know, I host a podcast that is you know, sponsored by a job board. So like I talk to a lot of people that are interested in finding a remote job, a fully remote job. And the thing that I say to those people is that you, you, Peter, are the top one for some company. It might be your company in your case. For me, it might be, you know, working inside the business operations team at Polygon Labs, that it is not a worthiness problem. It is a matchmaking problem. And the way that we get people matched up with their ideal positions. Mm-hmm. is by people divorcing their work from a specific geographic location. And this is kinda like the, you know, we can kind of get into the metaverse like location transcendence type of like idea there too, but like, I'm not so sure that that's gonna bear itself out completely. Who knows, I'm not smart enough to know the future, but I do know this: right now that if you decide I'm going to become an internet worker, you can find a job that more closely matches exactly what you want to be doing. And that company can find more easily exactly the person that's gonna fit that. Because they are unbound by the 30 mile radius around a particular headquarters or office that they may have.
Of course, it's location independent. Everything is around remote first is now location independent. I think the one of the biggest challenges that it's all, so there is a huge opportunity of course, but amazing caveats or mm-hmm. shall we say, challenges. I think that's, that's even better.
It's both and yeah. For me, what I'm in the business of doing, Is maximizing that benefit and mitigating those trade-offs? Right, of course. Because, because as soon as you start saying, we are not gonna be co-located, there's a bunch of great things that just happen automatically. Right. And there's also some things that are available only if, right. And then there are some things that are just automatically not so great and there's some other things that like, if you don't do take care of them, it will get even worse. Right? And of course, you need to be proactive and, and that is the challenge of, you know, the next decade, right? Is going to be companies that point themselves at maximizing the benefit and minimizing the downsides. Because on balance, right? If you say, okay, company a. Company B on balance they are exactly the same except for one factor. This one doesn't go to an office, this one does. There are th this, this company will continue to shrink. Company B that goes to the office will continue to shrink because they will have a harder and harder time competing for the talent that is making company a successful, right. And if you just start there, but there's things that, that, like company A could still lose on if they don't optimize for that version. Right. You know, remote work is a forcing function for intentionality and if we do things on purpose, it will get better.
And there are huge challenges around loyalty. There are huge challenges around I mean employee loyalty higher churn, employee satisfaction, like in terms of culture how people interact, build relationships online that are challenges mostly for the remote environment but not as much challenges for...
I wanna, I wanna, I wanna push back on that statement just for a moment because what remote work has done right, is that it exposed problems that existed long before 2020. Right. What it has exposed is that you can't get away with pretending things are fine because people are stuck. They are geographically bound to the job that you have.
And they're not happy. They weren't happy before. They just commuted and, and we sometimes, I mean, sorry to, I mean, super controversial here but like most people just want a paycheck. And even if you have like 10 options, because that's like your half an hour drive or I dunno, one hour shall we say. Then you have a limited option if you live in an area where you don't have that big hub city or whatever. While remotely, your motivation most of the time doesn't change. You still want your paycheck, but now you have an endless opportunity in front of you. And I think, and I'm so happy that you pushed back, by the way, on employee loyal loyalty because I think employee loyalty didn't exist that much, even before we realized that people are churning and leaving remote first companies as well. And this is where I think the DAO and the whole web3 concept can be super interesting because just like a quick definition, of course you can be part of multiple DAO communities and you can get incentivized to do the value or provide the value that the DAO requires, yada, yada, yada. If you translate it back to your work we are suddenly in the, I dunno how many thousands of people under Reddit over employed thread. But people are actually working fractionally and part-time, or even full-time for multiple companies remotely now. What does that bring us to employee loyalty, employee retention employee.
My take about that is it is on company leaders to provide an experience of working at a place that calls people further up and further into the organization. The reason why people are, you know, quiet quitting be the reason why people are quote unquote overemployed, right? The reason why people can work multiple jobs is because you've not taken the time right to set up the parameters around which that person is going to be able to contribute 40 hours worth of work in a week, right? And to be paid according. What, what is the value that they're bringing? You know we're seeing, you know, one of the, the long-term effects is gonna be normalization of global wages, right? Mm-hmm. one of the things that we're gonna see you, you know, o over time is gonna be, you know, some organizations will end up hiring in in time zone bands that are, that have overlap. If they, they need to be more synchronous Sure. Or they're gonna become even more distributed where it's saying we're not even going to have corporate governance structure at all, right? We're going to be contributing to the protocol instead of you know, contributing to shareholder value, right? Yes. This is a whole other business model that, you know, barely exists and may or may not work. Right. And I think that the more we lean into the fact that no one is in charge of anyone except for themselves, right? The easier it is for us to deal with the fact that that is the case. We have to maintain an invitational posture. We need to be able to invest power to with and within others. Right. I'm quoting, I'm paraphrasing Brene Brown. Highly recommend her work broadly, but especially as it relates to business operations. Her book, Dare to Lead is really, really great. And I think it's really important to embrace the, the definition of power, right that, that she uses from Martin Luther King Jr. Is to achieve purpose, right and affect change, right? So achieve purpose and affect change. That is the power that when we express that over other people, right? It only stays as big as it ever was, right? But when we start sharing that it can expand and grow and can serve everyone instead of just a small handful of.
This is really cold. But you need to, you need to share a little bit more golden nuggets here. What are your best practices, maybe, or tips on that? How do you maintain or create an invite culture for a company when there is, you know, it's really hard to connect with each other remotely or that other people say that it's hard although we met, I don't know, 30 minutes ago. I think we are connected really well. So it is possible. Also there is no office, which means that you don't go to a place and immediately orientate yourself. Who's in charge? Where is the boss? Who's leading here? Who's sitting there, where is that team? So how do you create a it's a culture of course, but, and we are talking about operations, of course. How do you create something that invites people into your organization?
You already said it with the operations bit, right? How do you have your digital workplace set up, right? Mm-hmm. Now, do you default to transparency? Right, are the chat channels, are they public? In your company, do you talk about important things out loud and in front of other people? Right? What is the all hands, like at your company, right? When you are talking to everyone, do we say the thing that has been, you know, quietly in the dms, or do we pretend like that type of stuff doesn't. It's really, really important. Even more important than it ever was to say the quiet thing out loud. When you do that, you have an opportunity to have a shared state. Okay? This is a very software version, but I understand when everyone is working on the same version. Right. We can iterate forward and become better together. Course. But if we're all you know, like operating with different versions, right? There's gonna be people that have gotta get caught up. There's gonna be, but the more that we can default to transparency, the easier it is for us to have the same shared state. And this has interactions with onboarding. You know, what does your knowledge base look like? Is it caught up to the current. If it's not, that's a problem, right? If the person, you know, comes on board and then the actual practice of of doing the job is like disconnected from what onboarding told them it was gonna be like there's gonna be this like, like say do gap. That needs to be you know, crossed back over. We have to be sincere. We have to be true to who we are. We have to be integrated persons. I mean, so you can hear that my spouse is a therapist in some of my statements here. But like the more and more we can actually be the person that we say we are, the easier it is for us to be the best version we can.
So it is, I love it. So it's transparency and it's so interesting because I talk a lot about transparency as well, and I do think and I just had another conversation with a, with someone else on this topic and if I say to leaders, for example we're not web3 not like this decentralized future thinkers Transparency make your workplace a little bit more transparent. Okay? And everyone shakes their head, what the fuck? What is transparent? How can I create a transplant whole culture and in reinstate transparency how it is actionable? And my answer is always that dissect the main concept into different parts and indirectly create a transparent culture. So, for example, provide access to information, to wiki, access to decision making. If you do the small things, the small steps, then it indirectly creates inviting transparent culture. And I do have a question.
The number one switch for me mm-hmm. as it relates, as it relates to defaulting to transparency. Mm-hmm. is to say that there must be a reason why something is made private or has permission gating. Right? Mm-hmm. There's never a question. Okay, let's, let's put this in public. Well, now we want to turn this into a private thing or we want to restrict access. There has to be a reason why, and this is what your podcast, right? Is called Leadership Anywhere. It is leaders who are going to have to be the ones that maintain that. They are the deciders. Will this be gated? Will this be permissioned? Will this be hidden? And they have to decide. There needs to be an explicit reason why it must be hidden, why it must be kept from everyone. Otherwise, it should be in public, it should be searchable in your chat transcripts, right? You should be able to search that. You should be able to find it, should be able to get to it in, in your shared you know, cloud storage areas. If you are setting up folders that have only so and so can see this. Maybe that makes sense, but where do you start from? Where is the default when you, when you hit new on a document, where does it pop up? Does it pop up up in a place that no one can see? Or does it pop up in a place where everyone can see.
This is so great and I can answer the sensitive question because most of the people tend to think that there is a limit to that, and I do think that limit is usually the company performance, you know, hard cash, money, stuff like that, financials and even more to that individual employee performance and their money and cash.
So, for example. Okay, well, okay. Hold, hold on just a second. Well, you know, you know, in the United States, mm-hmm. basically most of the books in publicly traded companies are wide open. Right.
That's what they always say.
There's some things that are not visible. But, you know, the financials are required to be disclosed on a regular interval. You might not be able to be like you know, every day or day to day or minute to minute. Do you disclose to our company what's going on? Does everybody know? Are we OK? Because if we're not then everyone needs to know that so that we can take action.
Yes. Yeah, yeah. Totally. And this is exactly word by word that I usually say that when people think that, okay, but why should I share the company performance metrics and the financials and the growth models and whatever we have. Internally, not even putting out a public, but like internally. Or you can put it on public. That's fine too. That's a great invite button by the way. If the company is doing great. And I always say that, come on, like in most of the cases that we are talking about here this is not a new thing. I mean, we maybe talk about this with different new terms, but the process and how did that before it, it was there before it called public traded companies. They already share everything so. Okay. Then push it through. Where is your private button then? So what do you think that what you don't need to add any, like you know, workplace examples.
For myself, right? I am an internet person on the internet doing internet things. Now I don't have on my LinkedIn, like my salary. , right? But my boss knows, right? So I think it's one of those deals where this is something that, that is above my pay grade, right? So to me it's really important for those, those CEO level people to be very considered about which things they choose to disclose and which things they don't. And it very often this has interactions with, with legal requirements and compliance and like security. Yeah. Like there's, there's a lot of things to be dealt with there. So like what, what is my, like, like toggle for private or not? I'm very out loud. I'm very you know Present in public about most things. That's not every company or or every part of every company. Right. And I don't pretend that that there should always be everything public. I am instead saying there should always, in every time we put things behind the screen to have a reason for doing so. That's the only invitation that I'm making. I'm not saying we should be, you know, a full on holocracy that, that everyone is the C E O. I'm not suggesting that there's gonna be some companies that work that way really well. , there's gonna be others that we're gonna have some information that's only known to a small subset, and that's okay. Right. But I'm saying why is that okay? Because we have, we have decided together that this is why we're doing it this way. That's right. What is the default? Share it. Why aren't we sharing it? Well, here's why.
Cool. I love it. I love it. People might not know it is, but we are recording this show in the middle of January now. This is still the, the, the beginning of the year. If you look at your click crystal ball, which I'm sure you have what do you see in the future of work, what do you see how web3 will continue to influence this aspect? And also, I mean, come on, what, what do you see for your personal growth and for company's growth that's also important?
Well, we'll talk about the two buckets, right? Let's talk about the remote work bucket first. Right? Perfect. The remote work bucket is that I think, Every company, right, because of March of 2020, is being forced to become much more intentional about their co-location strategy than they ever were before. And the the, the news is coming out. Right. Drawer Poag another person that talks about this intersection between remote work and web three. You know, he just had Steven Painter on a LinkedIn Live this week talking about cities that are approaching Steven's company to help them convert empty office space into housing.
I saw that news by the way, for New York as well.
Yeah and the number is that there's about 30% of a lot of this standing office space that is being unused currently is able to be converted. That's a lot of buildings. That is a lot of buildings and that is going to transform cities into much more livable places, they're gonna have much more vibrancy and affordability, and the more that we become distributed as workers, the more distributed we will become as people. That is going to be the long term effect. Now the cities and the localities and the municipalities that that. . The idea that, you know what, if we have good internet and decent services, right? We're going to attract, you know, local media celebrates when 10 new jobs are coming in because such and such comp. Well, what about 10 new remote workers that chose to reside in your town? That could happen every day in some places.
Yes. Also, by the way, you're American, so, yes and where do you live exactly, by the way, would you say?
I am in the 140th metropolitan area in the United States. I live in Fort Wayne, Indiana. Right. So like I live Chicago ish, right? We live in the education and healthcare hub of really large rural area. Right? And so like, this is the post-industrial Midwest. Right. There is some amount of manufacturing that happens here. If you buy a pickup truck in America more than likely it got built nearby. Right? But that's not to say that that is where most people are employed today. Yes. Most people are employed by hospitals and schools in our town. And there's a few, you know, like corporations that, that have back offices here. But, but most folk are busy with, with service jobs, right. And so I think it's really important for us to say the more we can get these top level knowledge jobs to be located in places that are not Northern California. That's a really good outcome for the world.
And for the suburbs, everywhere else, because it revitalizes everything. It creates new and higher level service jobs. It'll create a, I mean everything. So we probably know, but for there is the company called Codi.
I'm a big fan of Codi and all the flexible office arrangement type things because not everybody's home is suitable for working from. I'm very fortunate to be in the spare bedroom that we converted into an office. Not everybody's got that, and especially in more densely populated areas. So how can we work together to make that an effective place to, to work from. Cause I think that's kinda like, like the broad like, you know, kind of thing happening in remote work. Inside of web3 I think there is going to be, so let me put on my Ethereum maxi hat for a moment and I think that one of the things that's gonna happen, right in the near term, right, is that all of these pretenders, right, or there's gonna be a lot the long tail of like cryptocurrency things is going to go away, right? It's going to be ignored. And there's going to be very few winners. The power law dynamics are going to express themselves in blockchain very, very shortly. Right. That that's, that's part of what the winter is doing. All the leaves are falling off of the trees and all we're left is with the evergreens, right? So those, those evergreens are going to stand tall and proud and green, and will you know flourish through the winter, right? And I think in the near term. Right? Like how does that interact with the remote working? Right. I think there's gonna be more opportunity for people to find and create value for themselves that is disconnected from a corporation. That is disconnected from traditional financial structures. Right. And that's gonna happen especially in places that, that do not strong currency controls, right? And, and there's like this is what's happened already in cryptocurrency, but that's going to be something that the, these parallel tracks of like enabling more and more people to be paid in USD elsewhere besides the United States. That's remote work. Hi. Yes. More and more people going to be able to you know, like invest in themselves and invest in co-ownership of, of things like DAOs, like protocols that's going to happen. You know, with interactions with how people get paid and how people choose to work and how people choose to store their.
Sure. Or just create some side hustle that's better and easy as well. Yes. Love it. And for you, maybe personally, where would you see yourself? Do you have a new North star? Maybe?
I would say more than anything else, I want to you know, fly the flag for the ideals of 2019 remote but carried forward into the 2020s. Right. Because I, I think that 2019 was, was an epochal change, right? There was a set of people that were weird and goofy. Right. I know. And all of a sudden those nerds became this guy. Right. Who's talking to you on a podcast about that. Right. Yeah. And I think for me, I want to continue to see those people and those ideas to continue to have their signal boosted. To continue to see the, the way the things that we figured out in 2019 be embedded inside of the operational principles of every company.
I hope, I honestly wholeheartedly hope that this will be the future that we will talk about next year. Where people can find you?
Just check out all my stuff at tsell dot, link ts e l l.link links to all my stuff, including the remote show, the remote show dot link. We're gonna be hosting every month. We're gonna be having a, a hangout for people that were 2019 remoters or maybe you just figured out that you wanted to do this. The remote show.live is the place to sign up and be invited to that. We're hoping that too many people come and get to meet one another and we'll figure out what happens when there's too many people. But we're trying to hold, open the space for everyone to find out about these ideas, to find out about what it's like to be inside of an organization that really means it when they say they're remote first and not just something they put on a job description.
I love it. Appreciate, hugely appreciate that you, that you were available for this show. Thank you very much for coming.
Thank you, Peter. Blessings.
