EP022 - Why do you need to hire digital nomads for your business with Nina Keizer of Digital Nomads Daily
About the episode
This episode focuses on digital nomads. The OGs of remote work and how the community of digital nomadism has evolved in the last years. But what can we, remote leaders, learn from this? Why should we embrace hiring digital nomads? Where is their competitive advantage? How to work with them, and how to keep them engaged? To answer all these questions, I invited Nienke Nina Keizer, the Digital Nomads Daily Show host and the founder of Remote With Confidence.
About the guest
Nienke Nina is the founder of Digital Nomads Daily and host of the Digital Nomads Daily Podcast. It’s a community platform for location-independent folks sharing experiences and tips about traveling and remote working. She is the author of the book Digital Nomads With Confidence and is passionate about the future of work.
She is passionate about podcasting, community building, and inspiring others to live a location-independent lifestyle confidently. She likes to stay longer in places and is a slomad currently enjoying the beautiful corners of Brazil.
About the host
My name is Peter Benei, founder of Anywhere Consulting. My mission is to help and inspire a community of remote leaders who can bring more autonomy, transparency, and leverage to their businesses, ultimately empowering their colleagues to be happier, more independent, and more self-conscious.
Connect with me on LinkedIn.
Want to become a guest on the show? Contact me here.
Quotes from the show
Hiring curious people is needed, challenging their habits and belief systems. You can get innovative new ideas if you bring that into a company.
Digital nomads are solopreneurs, freelancers, and remote workers. It's a lifestyle; just like any lifestyle, it has different forms, shapes, colors, and sizes. So it's not just one thing.
If you ask people to commit to certain hours, you're not focusing on output. Instead, you're focusing on the traditional office mindset.
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Welcome everyone. Yet another day to talk about the future of work and the future of leadership. Today we will talk about digital nomads. Yeah. I know some of you might ask, okay, but what does it have to do with remote leadership? Well, quite a lot actually. In this episode, we are trying to approach the digital nomads as a topic from an angle that focuses more on employment. More importantly, how employable digital nomads are, how and why you need to attract them to your business as an employee. To discuss I have Nianka Nina host of Digital Nomads Daily, one of the most prolific digital nomads show. Hi Nina. How are you?
Hi. Thanks so much for having me.
Lovely to have you here. So before we start, share your remote journey, how did you end up talking about digital nomad, talking with digital nomads and starting the show?
Yeah, so, well, I'm a digital nomad myself. I guess that makes sense, and I've been nomading, for almost like five years. One of the things that I really learned in this journey is that every time you go to a new place like it's very overwhelming and I find that what helps is if you connect with like-minded people. But also if you ask questions. And when I started as digital nomad, this is basically what I did because I had a slightly a burnout and I went to Bali on a workation, and then I saw all these people with their laptops and I was like, oh, this is interesting. And actually, a friend who was a digital nomad invited me to come there and, that's when I figured I wanna also do this. Like, I, I don't wanna be stuck in a high rise in Manila, and I just wanna, because that's what where I was living, I wanna see the world a little bit more. Like I'm a tiny Dutch girl moving all the way to the Philippines, and then I'm just seeing concrete, like, that's not cool. So I yeah, I was in Bali and there I decided I'm gonna do this. Then I started asking questions like people, like, Hey, how do you do this. Like, but basic things, right? Like, not just, oh, how do you make money, but like, how do you find a location? Like, how do you know where to connect, where do you meet people? Like how do you make friends? How do you date? Like I had a lot of questions and yeah, I started recording that. And then at one point I had to pause a little bit the work there, because obviously like passion projects are great, but making it really work is challenging. And then last year I started Digital Nomads Daily podcast, where I interview experienced digital nomads, and when I say experienced digital nomads, I'm not talking about people that have been doing this for five years. Like even someone that is doing it for a couple of months or for a year, like everyone has their unique experiences. Unique stories and we can learn from that. So that's how it started. And I love also the topic remote work because I'm a huge advocate for hiring digital nomads, hence I'm here.
Great. So the main motivation was, and this is how I personally imagine and talked with other digital nomads, the main motivation for nomads is travel. So it's a slightly different from those who are trying to work remotely, but you know, they don't want to skip or ditch their own personal life within their personal country of their choice. They just want to work a little bit more flexibly and they work from home. But for nomads it's different. It's more like the main motivation is please, employer allow me to work anywhere so I can travel along. And that's a slightly different motivation from other remote workers, I think. And one other thing that I want to reflect back is that you are doing this for like five years. And I know that you said that you're interviewing experienced nomads and sometimes even if you're doing it for like half a year or a quarter of a year you still have some sort of an experience or story that you can share, but like, come on, like five years, that's huge. So most of the nomads they are usually doing this for like two to three years. And they end up like settling down as far as I understood with talking with others. But only a small portion of them doing it for like longer periods of time. So before we jump into the travel motivation How did you manage these, you know, whole five years? You've probably traveled everywhere, I guess. And also worked from anywhere during these periods of times.
Yeah, so, well, actually, one of the misconceptions that I would love to sort of break down already, please, and this also taps into my nomad life. When I started, yes, it was about seeing more, more than just concrete and connecting with people, and that involves travel, but reflecting just on my own lifestyle, for me, this lifestyle is reaching a sort of, like a sense of freedom and travel is connected to that, but it's not about travel. And what I learned on my podcast is that a lot of digital nomads, they're more excited about living abroad, living foreign experiences, meeting people from all walks of life. And that doesn't happen if you stay in your own hometown. So that's why the abroad element is so important. But many digital nomads, they don't, they like to travel. They like to see like new things, but it's not just about travel. Now for me, it's been a transformation and this is why I love, love, love interviewing digital nomads and shining a light on this because I can imagine that a lot of companies and companies that are ready to hire remotely, they just think it's, oh, these digital nomads, they just wanna travel. They don't wanna work. They're just like making money so they can support their travels. I call bullshit on that. Like, can I say bullshit here? Of course you can. Okay. So because it's not true. It's just really not true. When I interview digital nomads they do it part-time. They're also digital nomads, but it's about the freedom and the flexibility to design a life that meets your desires as an individual, as a spouse, as a family. And also as an employee or a solopreneur. So yes, travel is an important component, but is not the motivator. I would say that travel is kind of the vehicle to meet new people, to have foreign experiences, to taste different food, to learn things about yourself, to reinvent your habits. So that's also how I can do this for so long. I don't travel every week. Currently I'm moving around a little bit more because of changing locations. My parents are coming to Brazil, which is amazing, but it's like, I'm not like fast paced traveling anymore, and it's not possible. And that's one of the large conclusions that we have on the Digital Nomads Daily podcast is that if you do fast travel, like it just messes up with your productivity. It messes up with your wellbeing. So that is maybe more for the people that I don't know wanna free themselves. They're maybe younger. They just got through a nasty divorce and they just got laid off, like more like impulse things rather than the sustainable travel.
I love how you challenge this travel misconception, by the way and no one would believe us that we haven't discussed this, by the way, pre-call. So I didn't throw up the ball so you. But I guess what you are saying here, and I think that would be really interesting for employers. Part of working remotely in a team, I think, one of the biggest challenge that that they have, aside from the operations and the collaboration is the culture. And I think when we discuss culture in general, I think we can, you know, culture can mean anything in general for everyone, but we can agree that everyone who joins a remote company and working from anywhere they should have that open mind, an open mindset to embrace pretty much anything culturally around them in the workplace. Because if they have like this, closed mindset or they say no to certain different things. It pretty much gives them challenges when they are working remotely with cross-cultural teams. And digital nomads in general, they can bring this into the picture because sometimes, okay, travel is not a motivation, as you said, but still, travel actually forces you a little bit to stay open-minded to step outside a little bit of your comfort zone to experience new things, even if maybe you had questions around those things, but still you embrace those new cultural ideas don't you think so that could be really valuable for others.
Oh, definitely. Like one of the benefits that I really see about hiring digital nomads, or at least be more open-minded to hiring people that are curious, that are challenging their own habits, that are challenging their own belief systems. If you bring that into a company, you can get really innovative new ideas and I think that when we look at remote first companies, this is what they do. They're like not mainstream. Like if you look at these companies that are always listed, like Doist, Buffer, like all these companies that are always listed as in top remote first companies. What they do is they embrace that people are curious. They even amplify the curiosity of people. Having a side hustle. No problem. Go for it. Like if you bring, and in that sense, you will bring knowledge, you will bring positive energy into a business. And that sounds a bit fluffy, but it's really true. In that sense, it's good for company culture. I think that digital nomad, like if you wanna go remote first, or if you even wanna like consider going hybrid, like talk to digital nomad because like I said, we're not lazy people that don't wanna work. Like I have a podcast. Just reflecting on myself, I have a podcast. I'm a side hustler. I love connecting with people. I love doing these kinds of things. But one thing that I also love is just being part of a team, because I wanna belong too, and I belong in a remote first company. And I belong in a team where people are curious. So, you know, and I'm like a typical digital nomad, so it's like there's a lot of misconceptions here. So yes, I think companies can definitely ban fit just for those reasons and many other reasons. Like, I can talk about this forever.
You mentioned one thing, which is well lazy. And most managers that I talk to they usually, well, they probably view productivity in a different way, and that's a separate problem on its own, by the way. Which I'm trying to fix with operations and whatever. But I personally, I think, and I'm not sure I'm the right, but, but maybe you can correct me that if you are digital nomad for years Okay, you are living in Bali or somewhere in Southeast Asia. Obviously you need a little, shall we say, less in terms of cost of living, but you still need the money. And it means that if you are doing this for years, you probably have some sort of an income. So you can retain a job, you can do some work and yada, yada, yada. And if you are able, if you were able to do and retain those income streams for multiple years, it means that you are success full in terms of productivity, in terms of gaining revenue, in terms of working for others. So my preconception around digital nomad is that they do work more productively. I wouldn't say less, but more productively. In a shorter period of time which is totally fine because they can take their work and do their tasks, do everything that is needed to be done for the job, but in a separate manner. So contrary to the popular belief that they're just sitting on a beach, they're actually doing more work and getting things a little bit more done. Just because the lifestyle that they are pursuing is kind of like, forcing them to do a little bit more within a shorter period of time.
I think that what this is a lot about is about conscious living, and conscious living is not about eating grass every day or carrots. Conscious living is about how, like how aware are you of yourself? Like what are your needs? What are things that make you tick, and what are things that are not connected with your values or your personality. But conscious living and this is what Digital Nomads master is also about how do I spend my time, with who do I spend my time? And if there is any sort of glitch or like, how can I get rid of this? So what digital nomads often do is that they look at their weeks, their days, and okay, this is what I need to get done. This is how much time I have. And then they try to probably do it faster because they wanna also explore and people and do all these things. So I think when we look at what probably people like companies would need in a remote first environment is very well with time and project management. Yep. Digital nomads definitely have that adaptability. Digital nomads are like masters of adapt. Yeah, like that is not a skill that many people, like mainstream people have. This is a skill that should be celebrated and it's a mindset as well. The other thing is Diversity and inclusion. We're curious. We like to talk with foreigners, with foreign people, with things that are outside of our comfort zone. Very important for diversity and inclusion. Of course, communication style. We're dealing with all sorts of people, whether it is fellow digital nomads. We instantly connect. We had that too when we did our first call, but it's also about can we understand and respect the habits and beliefs of other people? Can we also celebrate that? Because not everyone wants to do like Easter egg hunting on Zoom, so. And then there's a whole list, like asynchronous work. Like for me that is, I'm doing that for so long. Like for me, it's even stupid to put that on my resume, but apparently I have to because that's specifically what companies look for. So that's like this massive list of skillsets that companies are looking for but yet they're not interested in digital nomads because it's like, oh, they're travel. They don't work. Like, like that's why I said I wanna call bullshit on that because if you wanna go remote first or a hybrid, we have those skill sets. We even mastered it because we had to. It's like survival instincts. Like you said, you have to make money. Because otherwise you cannot do this lifestyle. You need to be some sort of social being. You don't have to be an extrovert, but some sort of social being. Otherwise, you're gonna get really lonely and no one wants to feel lonely. So what's interesting, just to like tip on the iceberg, cherry on pie, because this lifestyle is so dynamic, we constantly need to practice this because if I move to Bali tomorrow, I'm gonna practice this all over again. And then if I two months later move to Mexico, I need to do everything again so we don't go on autopilot. We are constantly reinventing our habits, our mindsets, our skillsets, and I think that's why we're so awesome. Obviously we have shitty skills and mindsets too maybe like that makes sense, but like just focusing on. Why we're awesome. Like this is what companies are looking for. This is like part of the future of work.
I think, I think that all of the misconceptions that we are trying to push back right now, are coming because of the evolution of digital nomads. Like 10 years ago, shall we say. They were usually like your usual affiliate marketer, solo preneur entrepreneur type of people who had the ability to start any kind of business. But also they wanted to pursue a lifestyle that gave them maximum freedom. But a lot of people actually switched to full-time employment. No entrepreneurship, they've worked for a company full-time or two companies part-time and they retain their lifestyle through kind of boring, full-time engagement for a company. But they still pursue the same goal of flexibility and freedom and travel. Do you see the same trend that now it's kind of like switching from entrepreneurship creators economy towards a little bit more classic type full-time employment?
Yeah. What I see more happening is, so this also touches on that it's not so black and white anymore. Before you would go to med school or you learn how to be a lawyer or the law, and that's the job that you do. You do marketing, communication studies, you're gonna do something in marketing communications. I think because there is so much knowledge available, you don't have to have a fancy degree to money making jobs. That sort of the, the environment of what is security, how do we make money is changing. And like you said, some people have two part-time jobs, other people have a full-time job plus site hustle. Have been like that for two years. No, for what am I saying? Three years I have full-time. And then I was just, you know, having my side hustles, which was website design, because I like design. And it was fine to do that because it's like, and that was not, that was a creative outlet. So also looking at why people start side hustles or why people go for a remote job. The reason why we wanna do that is changing. Now what I find interesting is that, and this is something that since I think it's in November, that we're more talking about this is the site hustle culture because this is why I think companies should also encourage people to have site hustles. With the recent layoffs, which has been so intense, like, so intense, you do see that people that have built a side hustle, a personal brand, where they have something that they own. So not a job, but something that they own those people, they will find a new job faster. We are looking for remote jobs same as me, because of, I wanna be part of a team. You might wanna have some financial security because when every, when all your pillars in life are constantly shaking, good or bad, that's hard to manage. That's hard for your brain to cope with and for your heart, of course. So I, my stability. Being part of the team, sort of like come home every day and also have the financial security that there's always some amount of money coming in. Now the site hustles is a creative expression and it's also a way to make more money or achieve my financial goals, but it's not just that. So I think that it's like about the security, like again, like the conscious living. Where do you find comfort zone. And where do you wanna take more risk? Some people take more risk in taking side hustles. Other people take more risk because they wanna start their own business. And that, and this is what's cool about it. You cannot say, oh, digital moments or travelers. Digital Nomas are solopreneurs. Digital Nomas are freelancers, digital nomas are remote workers. It's a lifestyle and just with any lifestyle it has different forms and shapes and colors and sizes. So it's not just one thing.
I love that you mentioned sidehustles. Because without giving out any names, I had a conversation with the manager a week ago or so. And the topic was, may I hire someone who has a prolific side hustle, which loosely connected to the role that they are trying to fill in as a full-time employee with my company? Because I'm not sure. I mean, will they work full-time for my company or they allocate, I dunno, 70% of their time for the job that they're trying to fill and 30% around their sidehustle. And I never understand this type of expression and this type of fear. Because instead of asking that, will they commit full-time to your job, you should be asking that your company, can your company kinda like use their sidehustle to your and both of your benefits? Because if so, you just win an employee who has a special small but active community around their own sidehustle. Whatever it is, and you can tap into that just by like writing a slack message to that employee. Would you mind to share my company update whatever it is on your sidehustle. Of course, yes. You just want not just an employee, but you just want a partner for the business. So instead of asking that how they can commit to your company, how can your company commit to their side hustle? Because that can be super beneficial for both of them. And obviously they will value that too. So, yeah.
And also when you look at that, like if someone would tell another person. Ooh, but you're not gonna commit the full-time. Like, first of all, what is full-time even? Like, is that Yeah, I worked in a company and that was like absolutely nuts. I am, but at, I say, I still managed to have a podcast, publish a book. And I was there more than full-time. But what I want to say is that if ask people to commit a certain hours of time. You're not focusing on output. You're focusing on traditional office mindset. You need to clock in at 8:00 AM and you can only clock out at. 5:00 PM. Even though your work is done, no one is, this is what you should do. This is traditional thinking. This is not remote first thinking. This is not being open-minded. And if a company is thinking this way, for me, I know that I don't wanna be part of the company. Because if you look at output, then you can have those open-minded conversations. How do you have a side hustle? So that's so cool. Like, yes. Can you mention like, Can I be on your podcast? Could you share our product with your community? Do you wanna be an affiliate? Because we really, you know, wanna also support, like, then you can have those innovative conversations, which is good for your employer brand. But if your mindset is someone needs to be here for, I don't know, 50, 40 hours a week, and I'm gonna count every single hour, I don't think that is remote first. I think that is an office environment in a virtual office world and that those things don't match. Like it's a mindset shift.
Absolutely agree. Absolutely agree. Let's pick your brain. If you would be a company who is trying to attract nomads well, what would you write in the job post? What would you tell as someone who is working there as a HR person or someone who is, who's who's working with people or part of their work is recruitment or hiring. What would you tell them how to approach this target group, shall we say?
I love this question. Really I love it because I actually did a short assignment very reason because I was applying for a job as a remote officer. And this was the assignment. They were like, okay, we're looking for a talent in this role, but we have a hard time find like, what would you do? And I was looking at the description and this is a remote first company, and they got their stuff. They have a good employer brand. But just looking at the job post, and I'm taking this from like a marketing and storytelling perspective. If you think about what digital nomads want to know, is that, is this job a hundred percent remote? And what does remote mean? Very important. What happens, and I dunno why this is like, if someone can tell me why companies put what the definition of remote in their company all the way down or somewhere they fluff it in the middle. It's like, what are you doing? Be very clear about what remote work means in your organization, how it comes to life, and use that as a hook to attract people in. It's like you're fishing. You wanna have good bayit to get the right fishes into your pond, right? So that's number one. And then instead of talking about how great you are, I would talk about what kind of person mindset would you wanna attract in your company, and why is that? So it's not about, you can write policies, create a digital marketing strategy, do a financial analysis or set KPIs. Like what is the energy, what is the person that you wanna bring into your company? And I find it very important because in a remote first company you don't just look at the skillset because we're not machines, we're not robots. You're not gonna look over someone's shoulder and be like, Ooh, that's not good. Like it's a collaborative environment, mostly in remote first environment. So I would do that. And then, yes, talk about yourself, like who are you as a company and what are your milestones? Why would I or the jobs seeker wants to work in your company? Be very specific if there are certain things important in your business. So let's say you focus on output and you have very strong KPIs. Put that in that description because if someone is not comfortable with that and they're like, oh no, I just wanna clock in six hours a day, they probably won't apply. They get like intimidated. But if people are like, oh yeah, I love this challenge, let's go. They will apply. And those are the people that you wanna have. Then do a bullet point of what the rule entails and what the expectation. Then add like a little bit, elaborate on the remote first. Like what are the benefits? If your benefits are only for certain citizenship or let's say only for Americans, or only for Europeans in these and these countries specified that as well. I've gone on applications where the benefits were there as benefits and then it's just for Americans. It's just like, so why? Then this is not a benefit for me. So you're basically wasting my time now as well, and of a lot of others. So those kind of things. And then one of the things that I love to do is if you do a selection process, Ask people to do an assignment where you can test their remote first skills. So don't say what they need to do. Just do like, once you're interested, send the applicant the assignment, but don't tell them how they need to do it. Because if the applicant will, let's say in this case, they will create a deck, a very short deck, like four, four page deck, which is great. And they send a loom or screen record with some additional thoughts in a very compact email. Links are there. They can already see that this person understands asynchronous work, short emails, clear communication, and they have a face they can present theirselves. They're comfortable doing that. That's what I would do.
Hundreds percent agree. And these are amazing tips. Thank you for sharing. One other thing that came to my mind by the way, is that one of the main differences between work from home, someone like myself compared to a nomad is that nomads, usually, they are great connectors. So it is really rare that you see a digital nomad traveling alone. Usually nomads tend to gravitate towards other nomads, shall we say. Which means that they, they chitchat, they share, they, they build relationships really quickly, even with the with the locals as well. Because no one wants to feel alone. And that can be also super beneficial for a company. So if you are looking for someone who becomes an ambassador for your company look no further because nomads will actually make the job hunting for you sometimes and in some different cases just by pretty much sharing and advocating the company that they are working for because they talk to so many people. And that's different from others who are, you know, working from home from the same local neighborhood. Yeah. Although they're working remotely, but you know, they are still talking to the same people they talk when they went to the office anyway. I wanted to ask this question. No pun intended, but how much time does it take for you to pack all your stuff together? All the briefcases, everything, and get on the road.
Oh, great. Okay. So, well, I managed to do it is my shortest has been like 30. That was pretty good. But that's not, that's, that's really great. Yes. That's fast. But that's not need backing. Like, that is just, I mean, I pull everything. So what I own everything in total is, I think it's like 27 kilos that's there. Wow. That is excluding my, what is it, eight kilo nomad cat so he's a little bit chubby, but mega cute. And there are a couple of surfboards. As well. I travel with my partner and we like to serve, so that's like the actual luggage, but in my luggage, yeah, like I can pack past my yoga mat, fits in my luggage. I don't have like, I don't have a lot of things, but I'm a girl and I like to, you know, of course I like to dress up, so, and I don't shop. If I shop, I'm always replacing, I can take days to buy something because I really need to see, okay, does it fit, does it fit my other outfits, for example? So I'm super conscious about these things and I like it because I'm not a bit consumer and I think that's good for the planet. I love this life. It's so, I find this like the more you own, the more stress you experience. I'm not saying I'm never stressed. Is the more stuff I accumulate, I just feel uncomfortable. I just don't feel, yeah. I don't need a lot of stuff.
Nina that was an amazing conversation. Where can people find you?
Yeah, thank you so much for having me. I really enjoyed it. So if you wanna learn more about how to go remote with confidence, you can go to my website remote with confidence.com. I share their resources, articles and conversations that I have with remote first company leaders, people in recruitment. And yeah, there, that's where you can find me.
I think, I hope we, we were successful of dismantling most of the beliefs and preconceptions around nomads and why people should employ them and what benefits they can give to any kind of remote first mindset companies, or even not just for remote first mindset companies, but any kind of company. You know, trying to broaden their mindset, broaden their view around the world, and then tap into that resource. So again, thank you for coming.
Thank you so much for having me. I had a blast.
